| Poster | | Topic: Shirt numbers from the past (the |   |
| | martincool
Ballenjongen
Uit: Poland
Posts: 5
Reg.: 1 mei 2008 |
Hello.
I'm very interested in shirt numbers of famous football players. Now it is easy because to find certain player's numbers because almost in every league and competition players are assigned permanent numbers for the whole season.
In the past however it wasn't the case. Players were given 1-11 numbers for each match (the system was used until mid 1990s).
And that is what I'm looking for. Does anyone is interested in this? Maybe you have old videotaped Ajax matches with shirt numbers.
At first I'm looking for Ajax shirt numbers from 1987 and 1988 Cup Winners' Cup finals. Could anyone help me out?
Also I'm very interested in numbers that DENNIS BERGKAMP (my favourite player) wore during his times with Ajax.
Of course I do have some info I can share here but I need specific information.
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| | Sheik Yerbouti
Jeugdspeler
Posts: 85
Reg.: 16 augustus 2007 |
Hello Martin,
This is what I’ve come up with. I’ve added a question mark to the shirt numbers I'm not really sure of. As to the substitutes in both games, I could not retrieve their numbers. Dennis Bergkamp played with number 10 in his later Ajax years. I’m pretty sure that initially (as a sub) he also wore 14 and 7. And as far as the system of shirt numbering is concerned, well, there’s a whole history behind it and many changes were implemented through the years. You might want to Google it, to learn more about it.
Good luck with your project!
Final, Olympic Stadium, Athens, 13 May 1987, att 35000
Ajax - 1.FC Lokomotive Leipzig 1-0
21: 1-0 A: Van Basten
Ajax
Menzo(1); Silooy (2), Rijkaard(4), Verlaat(3), Boeve(5); Wouters(8), Winter(6), A.Mühren(10) (sub /Scholten); Van ’t Schip(7), Van Basten(9), Rob Witschge(11) (sub /Bergkamp)
1.FC Lokomotive Leipzig
Müller; Kreer, Baum, Lindner, Zötsche; Scholz, Liebers (sub /Kühn), Bredow,
Marschall; Richter, Edmond (sub /Leitzke)
Final, Stade de la Meinau, Strasbourg, 11 May 1988, att 40000
KV Mechelen - Ajax 1-0
16' A: Blind sent off
53' 1-0 M: Den Boer
KV Mechelen
Preud'homme; Clijsters, Sanders, Rutjes, Deferm; Hofkens (sub /Theunis 73), Emmers, E.Koeman, De Wilde (sub /Demesmaeker 60); Den Boer, Ohana
Ajax
Menzo(1); Blind(2), Wouters(3), Larsson(4), Verlaat(5) (sub /Meijer); Van ’t Schip(7) (sub /Bergkamp), Winter(8?), A.Mühren(10?), Scholten(6); Bosman (9?), Rob Witschge (11?)
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| | martincool
Ballenjongen
Uit: Poland
Posts: 5
Reg.: 1 mei 2008 |
Hello Sheik
Thanks a lot for the reply! Can you tell me where did you get the numbers from?
You mentioned google.com but it is not as simple as it seems. It's extremely easy to find line-ups of certains (even low-profile) matches but they are usually given by the positions order (goalie->defenders->midfielders->forwards) and that's not what I'm looking for.
As for Bergkamp-I saw several compilations of his early Ajax goals and noticed that he usually wore numbers 7 (what about Van't Schip's number?) and 8. At that time he Never had his later-trademark number 10! I noticed that even in the season 90/91 (after the departure of Richard Witschge) when he was leading Ajax player he had a number 8, not 10.
He has been given no.10 shirt since the 91/92 season (under the guidance of Van Gaal and it was also the start of "ABN Amro shirts" which replaced "TDK".
Can anyone confirm this?
Your numbers applied to both games seem correct so thank you very much for them!
If you have any source of shirt numbers or some videotaped matches from the past-please let me know.
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| | Sheik Yerbouti
Jeugdspeler
Posts: 85
Reg.: 16 augustus 2007 |
Hello Martin,
Well most of it I got from YouTube footage of both finals. 1987 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sVhMGqkT5s
1988 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTRkJnxC6VY. As I didn’t have VHS in those days, let alone DVD, I had to search for it as well. Once I see the footage I’ll recognize the players. I have looked into old football magazines and Ajax yearbooks as well, but it’s pretty hard to find shirt numbers (rugnummers in Dutch). What you are looking for are people who collect programmes of Ajax matches. I’m pretty sure there are forum members who can provide you with a lot more information, so guys if you read this: give us a helping hand! As to Bergkamp: in the Cruijff era he started out as a substitute for John Van ’t Schip, the first choice right winger (no.7). Arnold Mühren wore no.10. Later on, when Beenhakker was boss, Bergkamp had to compete with Ron Willems, Ronald de Boer and Wim Jonk for the central midfield (attack) spot. Bergkamp usually started in the opening line-up. Richard Witschge, who replaced Mühren, usually wore no. 10. For example in the match against PSV (February 1990) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLWL9aZr75s Bergkamp was out with an injury and replaced by Jonk.
Ajax
Menzo (1); Blind (2), Vink (3), Winter (6), Larsson (5); Wouters (4), Jonk (8) (sub /Willems (14), Witschge (10); Van ‘t Schip (7), Pettersson (9), Roy (11)
Mind you this is an unusual line-up. Aron Winter, normally midfielder, was specifically tasked with marking PSV’s Romario. Peter Larsson normally played central defence. In the summer of 91 Richard Witschge left Ajax for Barcelona and Ronald de Boer moved to FC Twente. And starting with the 91/92 season, ABN-Amro replaced TDK as shirt sponsor. Later, in September 91, Van Gaal took over from Beenhakker. While Ron Willems suffered from injuries and Wim Jonk replaced Jan Wouters (Bayern München) as the new no. 4 ( a mixture of an offensive central defender and a defensive central midfielder), Bergkamp was first choice for central midfield (attack),wearing no.10. Well, that’s it for now. I’ll try to dig up some more footage and further information.
[Dit bericht is veranderd door Sheik Yerbouti (op 9 mei 2008 02:29:13).]
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| | Sheik Yerbouti
Jeugdspeler
Posts: 85
Reg.: 16 augustus 2007 |
Update
In the Dutch Cupfinal of June the 5th, 1987, versus FC Den Haag (4-2 win, extra time) Dennis Bergkamp, as a substitute, wore number 16.
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| | martincool
Ballenjongen
Uit: Poland
Posts: 5
Reg.: 1 mei 2008 |
Sheik - I'm impressed!
Youtube is also my source of shirt numbers (I'm not only interested in Ajax numbers). Some time ago I saw all 3 matches you've given me links to. Unfortunately those 1987 and 1988 final coverages were too short to identify all players numbers.
I have a question about Bergkamp. You mentioned that after his right-wing period he started playing offensive midfielder wearing number 8. What about Richard Witschge? Wasn't that his position (and earlier-Muehren's)? Then you said that Bergkamp started wearing number 10 (under Van Gaal) when playing central offensive midfielder. The position seems the same but the numbers differ.
I must say that I have previously associated him only as a offensive midfielder (half-forward) wearing number 10 in Ajax, Inter and Arsenal. I had no idea he started his career as a right winger.
Also, you mentioned programmes of Ajax matches. I'm not sure whether they contain shirt numbers because as far as I know they are printed before the game when coaches still consider line-ups. At least in Poland those programmes didn't have squads with 1-11 numbers.
I appreciate your replies and I'm impressed by your knowledge-it isn't easy to find someone who is interested in the subject
I almost forgot-I'm not interested in numbers of substitutes-only in starting "eleven". They are too difficult to trace and usually are given without any sense-for example Van Basten's no.12 during Euro88 - it's normally associated with a sub goalkeeper, not a striker.
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| | Sheik Yerbouti
Jeugdspeler
Posts: 85
Reg.: 16 augustus 2007 |
quote:
martincool schreef: ...
I have a question about Bergkamp. You mentioned that after his right-wing period he started playing offensive midfielder wearing number 8. What about Richard Witschge? Wasn't that his position (and earlier-Muehren's)? Then you said that Bergkamp started wearing number 10 (under Van Gaal) when playing central offensive midfielder. The position seems the same but the numbers differ.
I see what you mean. Let me try and clarify. Remember the classic Ajax-system is 4-3-3 or if you like, 3-4-3 and the starting line-up in the Fall of 1990 (Beenhakker-era) might have looked like this:
---Roy(11)--------Pettersson(9)------Van 't Schip(7)--
---Witschge(10)---Bergkamp(8)--------Winter(6)--------
------------------Wouters(4)--------------------------
---F. de Boer(5)---------------------Blind(2)---------
------------------Vink(3)-----------------------------
------------------Menzo(1)----------------------------
So, after Witschge's transfer, number 10 went to Bergkamp and basically ever since (at Ajax) number 10 has been closely associated with the central offensive midfield position. During the Van Gaal-period in particular, shirt numbers corresponded with field positions. For example in the September 94 match versus AC Milan:
---Overmars(11)---Kluivert(9)---------Finidi(7)-----------
---Davids(8)------Litmanen(10)--------R. de Boer(6)--------
------------------Rijkaard(4)------------------------------
---F. de Boer(5)---------------------Reiziger(2)-----------
------------------Blind(3)---------------------------------
------------------Van der Sar(1)---------------------------
So, the following season(95-96) after Frank Rijkaard had ended his playing career, F. de Boer replaced Rijkaard as central defender and became the new number 4 (at least when playing)and Bogarde became the new number 5 (replacing F. de Boer at leftback).
quote:
Also, you mentioned programmes of Ajax matches. I'm not sure whether they contain shirt numbers because as far as I know they are printed before the game when coaches still consider line-ups. At least in Poland those programmes didn't have squads with 1-11 numbers.
OK, I'm not sure about that either. But don't forget, lots of people probably filled in the blanks after the line-up had been announced. At least back in the days.
quote:
I appreciate your replies and I'm impressed by your knowledge-it isn't easy to find someone who is interested in the subject
Sure, you're welcome! I'm glad to see someone from Poland (I remember Andrezj Rudy, Warzycha from the 96 Panathinaikos-matches, but especially Boniek and Lato)taking an interest in my favourite team. Although I'm not really interested in shirt numbers, I merely use them to remember and recognize players. And I can tell you, searching for shirt numbers and seeing and reading about old matches brought back some sweet memories!
Oh, before I forget,writing about Ajax and shirt numbers: what about the most important one? As from the current season on, number 14 has been taken out of commission as a tribute to this club's greatest player: Johan Cruijff. Roger was the last number 14 at Ajax.
[Dit bericht is veranderd door Sheik Yerbouti (op 9 mei 2008 22:58:48).]
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| | martincool
Ballenjongen
Uit: Poland
Posts: 5
Reg.: 1 mei 2008 |
Thanks a lot for the graphic line-ups! I've been interested in shirt numbers since the 1993/94 season-therefore I have a lot of line-ups from the second golden Ajax era (namely 1994-1996 seasons) and your numbers are correct.
Of course I'm aware of the legendary number 14-to tell you the truth I started tracking players' numbers when I read stories about Johan Cruyff's favourite numbers 14 and 9. In my view he is the greatest European player of all time and it was fun to discover his shirt numbers in the course of entire career. Then it became my addiction...
You mentioned Cruyff-do you know if Ruud Gullit inherited his no.10 shirt in Feyenoord? When they played together (and won the Double, correct me if I'm wrong) Ruud had number 7 and Johan number 10 but after one season in Rotterdam Cruyff ended his career for good but Gullit played there for some time before moving to PSV.
One more thing-do you know what number Wim Kieft had during his early seasons at Ajax? In Pisa and Torino he had number 9, in PSV-10 (and briefly 9 after Romario's departure) but I have no information about his Ajax number(s).
You mentioned some Polish players but today the closest link between Poland and the Netherlands is the coach of Poland national team - Leo Beenhakker
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| | Sheik Yerbouti
Jeugdspeler
Posts: 85
Reg.: 16 augustus 2007 |
quote:
martincool schreef:
You mentioned Cruyff-do you know if Ruud Gullit inherited his no.10 shirt in Feyenoord? When they played together (and won the Double, correct me if I'm wrong) Ruud had number 7 and Johan number 10 but after one season in Rotterdam Cruyff ended his career for good but Gullit played there for some time before moving to PSV.
Talk about bad memories! I’ve tried to completely ban images of Johan Cruijff in a Feyenoord-shirt from my mind and now you come up with this question… May I remind you that this is an Ajax fansite? Certain subjects are not to be discussed!  As far as I can remember in Gullit’s last season at Feyenoord (84-85), Mario Been wore no.10, and Gullit most likely still no.7.
quote:
One more thing-do you know what number Wim Kieft had during his early seasons at Ajax? In Pisa and Torino he had number 9, in PSV-10 (and briefly 9 after Romario's departure) but I have no information about his Ajax number(s)
Okay, in his first season (79-80), Kieft played in only one match. In his second (80-81) another legendary Ajax right winger, Tscheu-la Ling usually wore no. 9 and Piet Hamberg (originally first choice centre forward) no.10. I know for sure that Kieft wore no. 19 and maybe 13. In his third season (81-82) Ling still wore no.9 and Kieft no.10. In his last season (82-83) with Ajax, Kieft wore no. 14 and Cruijff no.9!
quote:
You mentioned some Polish players but today the closest link between Poland and the Netherlands is the coach of Poland national team - Leo Beenhakker
Haha, “Don Leo†is quite a character! The stories about him could fill a library! And don’t forget Ebi Smolarek, even though both he and his dad wore the wrong colours.
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| | martincool
Ballenjongen
Uit: Poland
Posts: 5
Reg.: 1 mei 2008 |
Again, I'm impressed..
I apologize for my Feyenoord faux-pas, promise it won't happen again
OK, lets get back to the subject.
You seem to know many palyers numbers season by season and that's what interests me best. Thus I have 2 questions.
1. Rijkaard's and Koeman's numbers.
When watching some archive Ajax matches on youtube (shamely they have been deleted due to "violation of copyrights"-luckily I made some notes about squads) I saw Rijkaard frequently switched numbers.
He started playing with no.5 (footage from 81/82 season-Cruyff-14, skipper Lerby-6). Then in 85/86 he wore number 6 (after Koeman who switched to 4) and finally in 86/87 (and probably his final 87/88) - number 4 (this time after Koeman's departure).
Also I saw that Ronald Koeman didn't have his trademark 4 shirt from the beginning-at first (83/84 season?) he had number 6-probably vacated by Lerby.
If you can-please take a look at this.
2. The 92/93 and 93/94 typical lineups.
Apart from the two listed below, I don't have any archive lineups from those seasons.Take a look if they are regular/correct.
I know that during 93/94 Litmanen was no.10 regular but what about the others? And did Rijkaard really have no.6 when returning to Ajax in 1993? In know that during 94/95 campaign he had no.4 constantly.
Also, in the 92/93 squad Davids seems to be missing. Wasn't he regular? Moreover number 11 is missing and I know it couldn't have been Roy (already left De Meer)
92/93, UEFA Cup quarter-final, vs Auxerre (the home game)
1.V.D.Sar, 2.Silooy, 3.Blind, 4.Jonk, 5.F.De Boer, 6.Seedorf, 7.Overmars, 8.Vink, 9.Petersson, 10.Bergkamp, 11.(???)
93/94, UEFA cup, vs. AC Parma
1.Van der Sar, 2.Silooy, 3.Blind, 4.Van Den Brom, 5.F.De Boer, 6.Rijkaard, 7.Van Vossen, 8.Davids, 9.Petersson, 10.Seedorf, 11.Overmars.
Thanks a lot for help, I appreciate that!
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| | Sheik Yerbouti
Jeugdspeler
Posts: 85
Reg.: 16 augustus 2007 |
You sure know how to keep me busy Martin! 
So remember that during the Van Gaal-period in particular, shirt numbers corresponded with field positions.
---Overmars(11)---Kluivert(9)---------Finidi(7)-----------
---Davids(8)------Litmanen(10)--------R. de Boer(6)--------
------------------Rijkaard(4)------------------------------
---F. de Boer(5)---------------------Reiziger(2)-----------
------------------Blind(3)---------------------------------
------------------Van der Sar(1)---------------------------
Apply this to R. Koeman, Rijkaard and Davids and things will become much clearer. At Ajax, both Koeman and Rijkaard started as midfielders (which explains no.6). Already when Aad de Mos (82-85) was coach, together with Jan Mölby, Koeman and Rijkaard started occasionally at the no.4 position (a mixture of an offensive central defender and a defensive central midfielder) and switched turns. So it would have made sense for them to wear no.4 then. I can confirm that in season 84-85 Koeman wore no.6 and Rijkaard no.5. In his last year, as a player, at Ajax (85-86) Koeman usually started at the no.4 position, whilst Rijkaard was a midfielder (no.6). So predictably, after Koeman had left, Rijkaard got his position and his accompanying shirt number. Then Rijkaard left (1987) and Jan Wouters (midfielder, no.6) inherited his position (1988), initially wearing no.3 (KV Mechelen 1988)and later no.4. Wouters was replaced by Wim Jonk in the Fall of 1991. When Wim Jonk and Bergkamp moved to Inter in the Summer of 1993, Van Gaal bought John van den Brom from Vitesse to replace Jonk. Rijkaard started again as right midfielder/defensive midfielder, hence his number 6. In the 93-94 season, Alflen, Seedorf and Oulida also occasionally played at no.4. In the following season (94-95) Pettersson (who in his last season had both played at centre forward and as a right midfielder) had returned to Sweden, and R. De Boer (normally centre forward) suggested to Van Gaal to let him play right midfield (no.6). At the same time Rijkaard returned to the no.4 position, replacing Van den Brom. Kluivert and Kanu took turns at no.9. It was typical of Van Gaal to use midfielders on the no.4 position, when required (due to injuries or suspensions). Davids, Seedorf, Litmanen, Oulida: they’ve all played no.4.
Edgar Davids originally started as a left winger (no.11), but Van Gaal started using him at left midfield (no.8) around 1993, replacing Kreek at the position and usually competing with Seedorf for that spot in the opening line-up. So in the 92-93 season (Roy left during this season) he switched between the left winger and left midfield positions. 93-94 Finidi George had been bought and became the regular no.7 (right winger), Overmars moved from right to left wing (7 to 11), so Davids had to focus on the left midfield position.
92/93, UEFA Cup quarter-final, vs Auxerre (the home game)
---Davids--------Pettersson---------Overmars-----------
---Alflen---------Bergkamp----------Vink (sub /Hansen)--------
------------------F. de Boer------------------------------
---Kreek -----------------------------Silooy-----------
------------------Blind (sub /Seedorf)---------------------------------
------------------Van der Sar---------------------------
A “typical†92-93 formation (Mind you Menzo lost his position to Van der Sar based on his performance in the away match versus Auxerre)
---Davids----------------Pettersson---------Overmars-----------
---Kreek/Davids---------Bergkamp----------Vink --------
---------------------------Jonk------------------------------
---F. de Boer -----------------------------Silooy-----------
---------------------------Blind ---------------------------------
---------------------Menzo/Van der Sar---------------------------
93/94, UEFA cup, vs. AC Parma (away)
---Van Vossen---Pettersson------------Overmars-----------
---Davids---------Seedorf---------------Rijkaard (sub /Petersen)--------
------------------Van den Brom (sub /R. de Boer)------------------------------
---F. de Boer ----------------------------Silooy-----------
------------------Blind---------------------------------
------------------Van der Sar---------------------------
A “typical†93-94 formation:
---Overmars-------------------Pettersson/R. de Boer-------------Finidi-----------
---Seedorf/Davids-------------Litmanen--------------------------Rijkaard/Pettersson --------
---------------------------------Van den Brom/Rijkaard ------------------------------
---F. de Boer ------------------------------------------------------Silooy-----------
---------------------------------Blind---------------------------------
---------------------------------Van der Sar---------------------------
Although I don’t have the shirt numbers I think you can safely apply the Van Gaal –model of assigning shirt numbers to the aforementioned formations. Good luck!
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